Heidi Phox Crossdressing Interview

Maddie Taylor (00:04.082)
Well, hello and welcome to My Girl Life podcast. I'm so excited for my interview today with the one and only Heidi Fox. I think I can speak for a lot of us, Heidi. Heidi has been an inspiration to a lot of us in the community, including myself. She's been brave enough to share a lot of her cross-dressing journey publicly through her website and her YouTube channel, which by the way has over 60,000 subscribers. So welcome to the show, Heidi.

Hp (00:32.087)
Well, thank you, Maddie. I'm so happy to be here.

Maddie Taylor (00:35.028)
Yay. And I know you're getting ready to head off to Vegas for TGR, which is so exciting. And I'm not going to be able to make it this year, but I'm going to live vicariously through you and all the others.

Hp (00:49.88)
Yes, as many of us do that. There's so many events now that nobody can get to all of them. But it's fun to see what people do.

Maddie Taylor (00:55.184)
I know, exactly. And that's what I love about social media is that you feel like you're participating and that you're there. And I've made so many friends and connections on social media. Once you go to the events, you feel like you know the people already. Yeah. Well, let's start with your background, Heidi. If you want to tell us where you grew up and a little bit about your childhood.

Hp (01:09.43)
Right, right.

Hp (01:18.407)
Okay, as it relates to Heidi or just in general?

Maddie Taylor (01:23.688)
just in general and then maybe how it dovetails into, yeah, hiding, but just in general, even prior to the dressing.

Hp (01:30.924)
Alright, well I actually grew up in Rhode Island. And I had two older sisters and a younger brother. And I was really into sports. And, well I guess I should back up a little bit. When I was little, my two older sisters, and I assume all older sisters do this with their younger brothers, they would play with me as if I was their...

Maddie Taylor (01:59.518)
DOLL

Hp (01:59.889)
Sister yeah as if I was a little sister But that I mean I think I kind of grew out of that because I kind of got into sports and stuff and that was a great way for me to Make friends and relate to people to guys because I think I did have a lot of kind of feminine tendencies and played with the girls on the on the playgrounds when I was looking in Kindergarten and quickly learned that that was not acceptable But I could interact with

Maddie Taylor (02:28.094)
that was your inclination to, was just kind of natural that you were comfortable doing that.

Hp (02:29.971)
Yeah, yeah. Apparently, yeah. Yeah. But I was good at sports, so even though I didn't really understand male culture very much, I could fit in pretty well by being good at sports, getting picked for teams and stuff.

Maddie Taylor (02:48.698)
Mm-hmm. Got acceptance that way. What sports did you play?

Hp (02:51.913)
Yeah. Well, like jumping up to like...

school and stuff. I played basketball, baseball, and soccer. Didn't do anything in college, although I try out for the baseball team. Quickly got into other things.

Maddie Taylor (03:12.572)
Nice.

Do you still do some sports recreationally now or is it kind of in the past?

Hp (03:18.409)
No, well, I for a long time I was running marathons and stuff but you eventually got Yeah, yeah, I ran Boston. I mean this is gonna sound like bragging now, but I mean it was I'm not shoot But yeah, I ran Boston I was I was pretty good for a while but you know as you get older you get slower and then just becomes a Reminder of how much older you're getting by how much slower you're getting

Maddie Taylor (03:25.17)
Wow, you've run marathons? That's impressive.

Maddie Taylor (03:32.676)
Well go ahead that's what this is for.

Hp (03:48.637)
But I kinda...

Maddie Taylor (03:49.0)
Well, the fact that you even finish one, regardless of where you spent finishes, just amazing.

Hp (03:53.065)
I guess so, thank you. But I've kind of transitioned from more competitive things. Maybe it's just like, again, getting older, I'm not really into the competitiveness of things because people kind of take things too seriously. I more just want to have the camaraderie and stuff. Yeah, well, maybe I hadn't thought about it in that regard. But yeah, that's probably part of it. Now I just want to do like things where you participate.

Maddie Taylor (04:10.344)
Yeah, the hyper hyper masculinity type thing. mean, sometimes.

Hp (04:22.726)
which is like the running and also I do lot of line dancing which you probably know already.

Maddie Taylor (04:23.377)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (04:29.374)
Did you find yourself kind of gravitating towards the women's conversations at a party or get together than the men's? just was more interesting, right?

Hp (04:35.598)
100%. Anytime, anytime we go, yeah, anytime we go to like a dinner party or get together, I have to be careful that I don't spend too much time hanging out with the ladies. Yeah, that's definitely true.

Maddie Taylor (04:48.742)
you

me too.

And you don't, sometimes you don't realize it. just naturally wander over and you're right in the conversation because it interests me more. And then sounds like it did for you. you currently live in Utah. that correct?

Hp (04:58.107)
Yeah, yeah.

Hp (05:08.283)
That's correct, yes.

Maddie Taylor (05:10.228)
and you're married.

Hp (05:12.079)
I married, been married for 28 years, I believe.

Maddie Taylor (05:16.99)
That's amazing. Congratulations, especially balancing what you've been balancing. And I know the answers to some of these questions because I read your, your website and some background. And so I know you have a supportive wife. And I know that she's not just supportive, but she's, you know, she's not just tolerant, she's supportive and even participates to some degree. In fact,

Hp (05:17.969)
Yeah, thank you.

Hp (05:29.297)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (05:45.074)
I think you made a quote that said, she said, knowing that if I didn't cross dress, I might not be the person she loves today. What a great gift for her to think that.

Hp (05:55.141)
Yeah.

Right, she knows that that's part of me and to remove that part of me, you know, what are you removing from your personality? But yeah, she is really supportive right now. It's been a long road, like I said, 28 years. It's had its ups and downs and when she went through all of the trying to understand it. But she sees how much I enjoy it and all of those

original fears that every wife has when they first find out about their husband cross-dressing, none of them developed into reality. So she's become really comfortable with it. honestly, you mentioned that I'm going to TGR next week or tomorrow actually. And I said, it's too bad you're not coming. She's like, kind of wish I could. I really miss hanging out with some of your girlfriends.

And so, yes.

Maddie Taylor (06:57.48)
Well, tell me about some of the ups and downs or the challenges because like you insinuated it wasn't perfect. It's probably been a lot of work. What are some of those challenges that you guys went through?

Hp (07:06.072)
Yeah.

Hp (07:10.776)
Well, I mean, they're the same things that everybody goes through. At first, she was like, well, this is not what I signed up for. This is not what I thought my life was going to be. Is he?

Maddie Taylor (07:22.152)
Did she catch you dressing or did you tell her?

Hp (07:25.09)
Well, okay, so originally I told her before we were married. And I figured if we're going to get married, this is something about her, something about me that she needs to know. And so I couldn't bear to just tell her, so I wrote her a letter. And I came home from work and I gave it to her and I went into the bedroom. And she came in five minutes later.

And what I said in the letter was that I used to dress because, you know, like many of us, I was convinced that I could stop. And so I said, I used to like to dress in women's clothing. I just wanted you to know that this is something that I used to do. And she was just so relieved that I wasn't breaking up with her, that she gave me a big hug and said it was no problem.

Maddie Taylor (08:00.201)
Yep.

Maddie Taylor (08:09.14)
Okay, so.

Maddie Taylor (08:17.232)
Interesting. What did you, what did you think when you told her that, you used to, did you think, this is only halfway and I'm going to have to end up telling her the rest or you truly believe that you were done.

Hp (08:32.011)
No, no, I truly believed that I was done. Yeah, at the time I didn't really have a lot. I had recently moved and I really didn't start building up a wardrobe until after we were married and kind of had access to a lot of hand-me-downs from her and as things developed, going shopping and stuff.

Maddie Taylor (08:35.746)
So you purged.

Hp (09:01.036)
But yeah, I've perched several times.

Maddie Taylor (09:04.756)
Yeah, I think we've all, gone through the purging thing. And for those of you who aren't familiar with that word, the purging is when, in different forms from, for probably for different people, but you either feel guilty or you feel like you don't want to do this or you want to get into a relationship and you feel like it'll, it'll, sabotage the relationship. You get rid of everything and you tell yourself you're going to stop and

For most people that doesn't work. It's temporary and you're back at it.

Hp (09:39.169)
and usually turns out to be kind of expensive.

Maddie Taylor (09:42.268)
It usually turns out to be kind of expensive and not only expensive, but sometimes at least when I first, started you'd you were nervous about shopping, didn't know where to shop. And occasionally you'd find a really great skirt or top blouse, and then you get rid of it. And it's like, well, it wasn't that, that expensive, but it was perfect. Right.

Hp (09:58.602)
Right.

you never find it again. Yes, I've done that,

Perfect pair of heels,

Maddie Taylor (10:09.397)
exactly. Tell us about your surprise day with your wife.

Hp (10:17.056)
My surprise day?

Maddie Taylor (10:18.652)
Yeah, there was a surprise day where I think it was on your one of your videos and you had a surprise day where she surprised you and took you out for shopping or.

Hp (10:31.282)
like way back in the beginning? Okay. All right. Yeah, there so yeah. So this short to continue the story kind of basically. so I told her that I had, I had, I used to cross dress. Well later, like a couple years into our marriage, I knew that I wanted to do it again and I told her about it and we had a lot of discussions. Well,

Maddie Taylor (10:33.756)
I think so. read it on the website.

Hp (11:00.025)
One day for, I was actually on her anniversary, she surprised me and she said, you know, I want to do this for you. And she took me out and she bought like all the makeup that I needed and a couple outfits and actually showed me, me my first tutorial on how to put on the makeup. And that made a huge difference because I had

toyed around with hers a couple times and it was not very good. So that was like my first big jump start.

Maddie Taylor (11:34.782)
Well, what a huge way to, for her to validate what you were doing. And I'm sure that meant way more to you than just the makeup and the, you know what I mean? It was the message. What did that feel like?

Hp (11:40.168)
Yeah, yeah.

Hp (11:46.91)
Absolutely. And she's done that over and over many times where she's done a lot of things where she didn't have to do it, but it really meant a lot to me. I think in her words, I treat her that well. So she's treating me the way that I treat her. that's, yeah, no kidding. Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (12:13.278)
Funny how that works.

Hp (12:16.807)
You know, when you love someone, you want them to be happy.

Maddie Taylor (12:21.3)
Was there ever a time where she, I'm gonna just say purged, for lack of a better term, where she purged, she thought, you know what, I really don't support this. And I thought I did and I don't. Was there ever a curve ball like that?

Hp (12:36.477)
Not exactly. There was a couple times where I probably pushed things a little too far and she had to tell me, whoa, whoa, this isn't what we talked about or, you know, I didn't want this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or there was one time I specifically remember she's like, that's all you ever talk about right now is Heidi, Heidi, Heidi, that's not, like, can we talk about something else for a while?

Maddie Taylor (12:45.586)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (12:51.188)
It's a little across my boundary.

Maddie Taylor (13:04.231)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (13:06.576)
Because you know, when it's like a dog that's been tied up and gets off the leash, it just runs around the yard like crazy. That's kind of how I felt.

Maddie Taylor (13:13.972)
You're so excited. Yeah. Do you have kids?

Hp (13:19.216)
I have four kids, yeah, they're all grown now. Yeah, three daughters and a son. They all know about Heidi and that's another kind of story. It didn't really come out the way I wanted it to. So we had one by one, we had a couple that live next, close to us, and they had some

Maddie Taylor (13:21.813)
that's awesome.

Do they know about Heidi?

Maddie Taylor (13:34.292)
Did you tell them one by one or all at once or? Good.

Hp (13:49.253)
troubles and marriage troubles and they did a lot of confiding in us and we would do vacations together and stuff and at one point we thought it would be appropriate to confide with them the challenges that our marriage had just to kind of show them that couples can have challenges and deal with them. So we confided with

Maddie Taylor (14:13.106)
And you're talking about your couple friend, your neighbors as a couple. Okay.

Hp (14:16.058)
Yeah, my neighbors, they were just a husband and wife that we used to do lots of things with and they shared a lot of their personal struggles. And so we shared my cross dressing with them and they acted like they thought it was cool but several months later there was kind of a falling out between us and them and they...

sort of threatened to out me to the neighborhood and so we thought okay we better tell our kids first before they hear it somewhere else so that's basically how I told them and phrasing it that way where I'm saying that this couple seems like they might wanna yeah

Hp (15:38.208)
Okay, so this couple, there was a falling out with this couple and they essentially seemed like they were threatening us to out me to the neighborhood. And so we wanted our kids to hear it from us first before they heard it from on the street. And phrasing it that way, like there's this couple and they kind of, we've had this falling out with them and they're threatening the family, but I want you to hear it here first.

Maddie Taylor (15:52.946)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (16:06.923)
You know, it almost was like the protect protecting the family. They were definitely in favor of protecting the family and made the cross dressing scene like not a big deal.

Maddie Taylor (16:18.578)
That's interesting. Yeah, it took a little heat off the little shine off the cross dressing and became more of a family thing and protecting the family, which might have eased it.

Hp (16:27.925)
Yeah, yeah, and I did have one of my daughters say, it all makes sense now.

Maddie Taylor (16:34.036)
That's funny. Well, why, why did the couple do that? Was it just, there we had a falling out and they were just being mean and that was one thing they could go to, or did they think that was pertinent to the neighborhood knowing or other people knowing? What was their motive?

Hp (16:38.774)
Yeah.

Hp (16:53.07)
Yeah, I don't I don't know I don't know and we've not really talked to them since then so Yeah, and I don't really want to get into that

Maddie Taylor (17:05.82)
Yeah, well that's too bad, but that's an interesting way to roll it out to your kids. So, and I'm sure that felt once you did, I'm sure that was a big relief to have them know.

Hp (17:16.096)
Yeah, and since then, think three of the four have actually seen me as Heidi. And it's hard to tell whether they... So my two youngest daughters seem like they think it's just fine, it's just kind of cool. But my son seems a little off put by it, but won't really admit it. And then my fourth daughter has never seen Heidi and I'm not really sure what she thinks.

Maddie Taylor (17:46.002)
What's the, what was the difference? And the reason I asked you is because, I'm out to most all my friends, that I see on a weekly basis. and they know Maddie in person, but my family, except for my kids, and my, friends from a long time ago, male and female, they've, I all came out to them in pictures only. They have not seen Maddie in person. I, and I haven't.

gone there with them. What was that like to the difference between the people you came out to in just a picture and then when you actually were, they saw you in person. Was there a much different reaction? Was it kind of a phased reaction because the pictures first and then in real person later?

Hp (18:38.165)
Well, I guess the only time that's happened was with my kids. And it's been really brief. Like I just was like, bye, I'm going to go play with friends. You know, just walking out the door. that, but it is when I've done it with my wife, originally it was really awkward because voice and mannerisms and the things that you talk about are different as Heidi and as

Maddie Taylor (18:52.092)
Okay.

Hp (19:07.782)
by male self and when you're interacting with someone who knows you in one way, changing that much is really awkward to know how much you want to retain your old personality and how much you want to present this new one. So yeah, that's a little tricky.

Maddie Taylor (19:08.584)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (19:26.068)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (19:31.76)
Interesting. I haven't experienced that yet, but someday I probably will. Let's talk about the dressing and how that started. At what age did you start dressing?

Hp (19:44.541)
Well, I guess if you count my sister's dressing me, it's before I can remember. I do remember trying on things that were left in the bathroom, swimming suits, and we had our laundry basket there. So locking myself in the bathroom and trying on whatever I could find in the laundry. I remember...

my mom painting my nails when I was little because she was painting my sister's nails so I wanted my nails painted too. Until I remember one time being teased about that like going over to a friend's house and being teased about it and then learning that that was not acceptable and then never doing it again. So I think a little

Maddie Taylor (20:32.963)
What was that like for you when you thought it was something that was just fine and natural and then you found out it was a bad thing for your friends?

Hp (20:42.267)
Yeah, was confusing and disappointing and...

Maddie Taylor (20:48.104)
Did you take them at their word? Like, okay, this is not right. Or did you think, okay.

Hp (20:51.545)
Yeah, absolutely. because, you as a kid, well, at least for me, a lot of things didn't come naturally. So was trying to figure out the world as I was growing up and having more experiences. And I took everything as a lesson and in some ways that helped me throughout my life that I looked at all these different opportunities as lessons. But yeah, I was disappointing.

Maddie Taylor (21:19.528)
Did you ever get caught? I think I read that your sister caught you and you begged her not to tell anybody.

Hp (21:24.817)
Yeah, that's definitely true. So my teenage years, probably 13 through 17 or so, I did a lot of cross-dressing, a lot of sneaking. About any chance I got, I would try on my sister's clothes. She was very fashionable. She was a cheerleader. She had lots of pretty clothes. So...

Maddie Taylor (21:51.08)
Very tempting.

Hp (21:52.024)
Yeah, very tempting. And again, my family was really into sports, so they were always leaving the house for games and stuff. And whenever I got a chance, I would stay home. But this particular time that you're talking about, so because they would leave for home, leave home and go to these games and I would dress at home, I kind of had like this clock in my head where I knew, okay, they're coming home. It's almost been an hour or whatever. So I thought I had like this sixth sense that I could

I could stay dressed as long as I wanted, but soon as the sixth sense started, spidey sense started going off, I would change. And I had a lot of close calls, so I thought I had like this sixth sense. But this one time, I was just, I don't know, a little too cocky, and she was studying, doing homework in the basement, so I went upstairs to her bedroom and tried on her miniskirt and high heels and top.

I heard her coming up the stairs and my gosh, my heart went into my stomach and I hoped that she was just coming into the kitchen. Nope, she came up the next set of stairs and my, I didn't have time. I just tried to hide but there was nowhere to hide. And so then she came into the room and I was just so embarrassed.

Maddie Taylor (22:53.158)
no.

Hahaha

Maddie Taylor (23:04.286)
Were you trying to rip clothes things off really quick?

Maddie Taylor (23:11.785)
goodness.

Maddie Taylor (23:17.064)
What did she say? Do you remember?

Hp (23:18.768)
She was shocked and I don't know what she said because I was just kind of ripping the clothes off as fast as I could. then later I went down and started doing my homework and she sat next to me and was like, so let's talk about that. And she wanted to know again, she's like, so it's okay if you're gay, it's okay. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not gay. This was the.

Yeah, and I said, and of course I said, this is the first time I ever tried it. I just wanted to see it was like, yeah, I promised her not to tell anyone. And she's never mentioned it since then and no one's ever mentioned it. So yeah, I've never brought it up. She's never brought it up.

Maddie Taylor (24:01.799)
Interesting.

Maddie Taylor (24:06.598)
Interesting. Well, speaking of getting a little too confident and cocky, you said that you went out to the mailbox in your sister's and mom's clothes. Did anybody see you?

Hp (24:14.454)
Yeah, I did that too. Yeah, that was, so that was one time when I stayed home sick from school, like not actually sick, but I pretended I was sick so that I could stay home and try on some of my, this time it was my mom's stuff, because she had some nice things too. But I just, there was just this impulse to go outside. And so yeah, I decided to go out to the mailbox and.

Maddie Taylor (24:29.203)
Yeah.

Hp (24:43.473)
It was kind of a dare. like to challenge myself, I guess. My heart was racing, but it felt so great having the wind blow my skirt. I had a, my hair wasn't really long, but it was long enough that I could feel the breeze on it. But no, I mean, it was, it was exciting. And as far as I know, no one saw me. I didn't see any neighbors or anything, but I loved hearing the heels clicking on the sidewalk and felt like I had accomplished something, you know, it was.

Maddie Taylor (24:45.841)
Was your heart racing?

Maddie Taylor (24:52.23)
Right.

Hp (25:12.083)
It was fun and exciting.

Maddie Taylor (25:13.204)
Well, I think it's almost universal with the cross dressing is you feel compelled to most of time I imagine it starts privately and then you feel compelled to go out in public in some way, whether it be a bar or a lot of people drive around in their car, dress just, you know, I think it's an evolution and then some people maybe never take it further than that. did you ever do that? Did you ever just drive around in your car dress?

Hp (25:41.579)
Not too much. I did it maybe twice. And one time I actually went through the McDonald's drive-thru. And it was obvious that they were onto me from the start because when I got up to the part where you pay, there was a couple people pretending to sweep or whatever just so they could get a glimpse of the cross dresser.

Maddie Taylor (26:07.282)
Ha ha ha!

everybody look, look, we've got one. We've got one here in the drive-through. Well, there weren't iPhones and cameras on everybody's phone. Just snap a quick pic and put you on the internet. Are there any gaps in between when you were dressing? Like you said, you dressed heavily more in your teen years and then did you stop? And I guess you did because you purged, but.

Hp (26:13.686)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's probably I probably wasn't the first one

Hp (26:24.863)
You're correct, yes.

Hp (26:38.857)
Right, yeah, I stopped when I was in college. there a wasn't the opportunity and also I would think I was just too busy. Too busy and too obsessed with girls, know, dating and stuff like that. So.

Maddie Taylor (26:38.876)
So those are the gaps. Where were those gaps?

Maddie Taylor (26:54.996)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (27:01.576)
think you said you didn't really do any dressing in college. That probably would have been difficult. You probably had roommates.

Hp (27:07.915)
Right, right. There was just no opportunity to. I didn't have any opportunity. I didn't have any clothing. you know, I was busy being a single guy.

Maddie Taylor (27:10.835)
Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (27:18.636)
What was, what did that feel like? Was it completely out of your mind? And then once things changed, it kind of came back or was it always just kind of there and you just had to keep it at bay.

Hp (27:29.735)
It was always there and I had to kind of had to keep it at bay. But it wasn't like super strong, I don't think. I think mostly I was trying to convince myself that that was something that I was moving on from. I think I may have even kind of surprised myself at how strongly it did eventually come back.

Maddie Taylor (27:37.821)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (27:46.973)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (27:56.306)
And that was when you got your own apartment, right? And you lived on your own.

Hp (27:59.263)
Yeah, when I got my own apartment, yeah, the urge came back and I ordered some stuff from like a Sears catalog or something. And so that was kind of the start of accumulating things. Again, I never really accumulated a lot of stuff until well after I was married. But yeah, it's started coming. Once you have that freedom of living on your own, then that opens up some new opportunities.

Maddie Taylor (28:09.18)
god.

Maddie Taylor (28:27.136)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Heidi, do you know why you dress? Have you ever spent time really psychoanalyzing why you dress or do you even really care? You enjoy it? Do you really care?

Hp (28:40.209)
I've spent a lot of time trying to psychoanalyze it and I think there is no one reason. I think it's a bunch of different reasons. yeah, kind of at this point, I don't really care what that reason is. I know I enjoy it and it's part of me and I'm not out to everybody. I'm actually not out to most people because it's not really relevant.

Maddie Taylor (28:57.908)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (29:09.427)
in most cases. But I have gone to multiple Christmas, sorry, Christmas parties, Halloween parties as female costumes. So I think a lot of people can make that connection.

Maddie Taylor (29:10.92)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (29:23.092)
And when you walked really well in your heels and you looked better than most of the women there, they probably went, that's not his first time. well, let me run a few things by you just to get your feedback on. This is kind of the, some of the psychology of the dressing. There's a familiar with auto-gynophilia that term.

Hp (29:30.014)
Yeah, exactly.

Hp (29:44.691)
Yes, I am.

Maddie Taylor (29:47.088)
I know it's controversial and I know there's part of that theory that is I don't agree with at all about trans is really not a real thing, but I do relate to the loving oneself as a woman being turned on by the idea of you being a woman. And it's usually sexually motivated. And that was in the beginning. And then it just kind of takes on a different.

life of its own but does that hit a home with you especially in the beginning?

Hp (30:21.451)
in the beginning,

Maddie Taylor (30:24.122)
Did it turn you on to dress in the beginning?

Hp (30:27.849)
Yeah, sort of. think like in the, well, in the beginning, like I think I was too young to know what being turned on was. Yeah. But I think at points I would say probably yes, but not as a major motivator.

Maddie Taylor (30:34.856)
That yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (30:47.994)
Mm-hmm. There was some element of it, but it wasn't the core.

Hp (30:51.683)
Yeah, so you know, when I imagine when girls get dressed up to go out clubbing or something and they are looking good, they're kind of a little bit turned on too. You know, and maybe that's a little bit different, but you know, I think there's some sexual charge to looking in the mirror and seeing someone who's sexy, whether it's a man seeing a woman.

Maddie Taylor (31:05.3)
I never really thought about that. I never really thought about that.

Maddie Taylor (31:14.93)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (31:19.074)
and at the mirror and seeing himself as a woman or a woman, know, feeling one powerful because she's got her tight dress and high heels on.

Maddie Taylor (31:27.72)
Well, I've always said I dress like the girl I want to be with. that's kind of my guiding. you don't, I already know the answer to this, but, so there's no gender dysphoria with you. You don't feel like a man, a woman trapped in a man's body.

Hp (31:31.008)
Yeah, well, I think that's true for a lot of people, yeah.

Hp (31:47.062)
Like I said, it's kind of complicated. I think there's a little bit of that as well. Not entirely. So I guess that's kind of a yes or no. And the answer would be no. There are some times when I feel like, you know, I think this would be a lot easier if I had been born a woman. This would make a lot more sense. But I do enjoy my male side. am proud of my male body as well as I'm proud of the female image that I can present.

Maddie Taylor (32:05.204)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (32:17.3)
So I'm not disgusted by looking at myself.

Maddie Taylor (32:19.472)
It sounds like you like yourself. You like yourself as a man and you like yourself as Heidi. It's not one or the other. Yeah. Well, what about one term I discovered and I wrote a blog article about it was gender envy. And I have to say that really opened my eyes. I'll just read the description. Have you ever heard of gender envy?

Hp (32:22.902)
Yeah, yeah, I am. I do. Exactly, Right.

Hp (32:43.456)
I've not but I can already tell you that I will probably like this definition.

Maddie Taylor (32:50.016)
On check out my blog, article, I'd love to get your feedback, but the definition, at least this is one of them, for many men, gender envy manifests as an emotional and psychological attraction to the traits of traditionally associated with women, such as femininity, grace, beauty, or even the freedom of expression that women often have regarding their appearance. And, and the other thing I took it, even in this blog article, I took it a step further is the power they have.

over just men and women, but just the public in general, when you appear as a, present as a pretty woman, the people treat you differently and they gravitate towards you. And that's what I've experienced. Have you experienced that?

Hp (33:39.564)
Well, I definitely believe that that's a thing, gender envy and everything you just said. can definitely, I've said that before to my wife many times. We've had that discussion. I've never used that term, but yeah, I definitely think that that's.

Maddie Taylor (33:52.436)
Yeah, had neither, but I think I felt it. knew it, but I didn't have a word, a phrase for it. So I thought that was interesting. For me, I'm artistic. I'm a songwriter and a producer. And I've been a magician when I was younger in high school. so I had this artistic and creative expression need. And I get a lot of that through Maddie, through the...

Hp (33:58.462)
Right, right.

Maddie Taylor (34:20.008)
the presentation, it's artistic, it's creative. You're always working to improve it, right?

Hp (34:26.71)
Yeah, 100%. Now my job is not very creative, so I definitely enjoy my creative outlets when I'm not at my job.

Maddie Taylor (34:28.724)
Okay.

Maddie Taylor (34:37.854)
So would you say this is the hideous probably or maybe your one and only truly creative artistic expression in life? Okay. Well, speaking of work, what do you do for work?

Hp (34:46.082)
Definitely not my one and only, it may be my favorite.

Hp (34:53.642)
I'm a pharmacist.

Maddie Taylor (34:55.73)
You are a pharmacist. Wow. Very cool. Is that something you aspired to be when you were like in college or did it just kind of.

Hp (34:57.067)
Yeah.

Hp (35:02.114)
Thank you.

Hp (35:06.246)
No, no, was a biology major and trying to figure out where you go with a biology degree and there was a huge shortage of pharmacists at the time so they were paying really well and seemed like a good fit.

Maddie Taylor (35:15.08)
You

Maddie Taylor (35:22.866)
So you're not only pretty, you're smart, is that what you're telling me?

Hp (35:25.186)
Well, I don't know about that, but okay,

Maddie Taylor (35:30.676)
Let's talk about your social life. Obviously you've been out in public. Do you and you have a presence online? When you go out, do you go primarily to LGBTQ establishments or mainstream establishments or it doesn't matter to you? Do you have a preference?

Hp (35:50.742)
Well, if I'm going in a small group or with just my wife or one or two friends, I definitely prefer to go to mainstream places. But with a large group, it usually seems like LGBTQ, yeah, exactly, are usually kind of where most of them would rather go just to feel more comfortable. So I'll go along with that.

Maddie Taylor (36:08.468)
Q I

Maddie Taylor (36:19.602)
And are you comfortable going out locally or do you just do it when you're out of town?

Hp (36:24.872)
I rarely go out locally, but I've been willing to do it. It doesn't really bother me too much. And I used to kind of leave the neighborhood in a stealthy way. I'll take my wig off and put a baseball cap on and then put a big baggy shirt over my outfit and then sneak out of the neighborhood. I've kind of just...

Maddie Taylor (36:43.39)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Hp (36:53.056)
And I got past that where I'll just leave the neighborhood and get in my car and drive without really caring anymore.

Maddie Taylor (37:01.36)
It's funny how that progresses and I'm not sure what gives you that confidence to just finally say to heck with it. I'm just, I'm just going to go with it. I used to do exactly what you described. when I would leave the hotel room in Vegas, even in Vegas, where I didn't know anybody and I would, I would do the makeup and, and, put my outfit on and then I would put, boy clothes over it and a backpack and a hat.

Hp (37:27.147)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (37:29.446)
and just hope that nobody got in the elevator with me and then go to the car and finish it off. And then it was, it was, wild side that got me over the hump where I just, I went out with that crowd and felt so comfortable and empowered. And, and I just said to heck with it and just walked right out of the, the, the, the door, and went down the elevator and I was nervous, but, it just broke the ice.

Hp (37:31.842)
Hahaha

Right, exactly.

Hp (37:56.697)
So did you have a hard time just opening the door to your hotel room to step out? Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (38:01.96)
hell yes. You sit there and you take a deep breath and then you do one, you know, you do one more or two more or 10 more, confident looks in the mirror, make sure everything is right. And you're like, okay, I do look okay. And yeah. And you open that door and your heart just, it's like you said before, it's, it's nerve wracking and exciting all at the same time, which is probably why people race cars fast and dive off, you know, jump out of airplanes, cetera.

Hp (38:12.173)
Right.

Hp (38:27.957)
exactly, yeah. Yup. But I think this is safer.

Maddie Taylor (38:31.197)
Right?

Maddie Taylor (38:35.252)
It's a little safer. I'm have you ever been misgendered when you've been out?

Hp (38:46.657)
I've been misgendered many times. It's hard to tell because I think people frequently use the wrong term just accidentally. I mean, this happens to me at work sometimes. I'm in guy mode and a customer will say, you, ma'am. And I know I don't look anything like a female when I'm at work. So I think people just use the wrong word just.

Maddie Taylor (38:57.683)
Yep.

Hp (39:14.943)
accidentally all the time so it's hard really to say.

Maddie Taylor (39:18.676)
Well, I think intent is really important. So I've been misgendered by my friends. I've misgendered myself, you know, telling a story about myself. I go, you know, I told myself, Hey dude. And, but it's the, it's the intent. If somebody's doing it on purpose and they repeatedly do it, or that, know, they're doing it to be mean, that's way different, but I don't get hung up on people making a mistake. And I might correct them in a funny way.

Hp (39:27.085)
Right.

Hp (39:46.423)
Right, yeah.

Maddie Taylor (39:46.802)
you know, not to make them feel uncomfortable, but yeah, I just don't think people should get hung up on that because you got to really look at the intent of the person.

Hp (39:58.701)
Yeah, yeah, no, I haven't really had anybody be intentionally offensive in that way.

Maddie Taylor (40:07.614)
That's good. And a lot of our friends have had different experiences and I appreciate that. I've only had one bad experience and it wasn't even that bad. And I've been out hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. I don't think it's a coincidence that given the political climate that we live in that I've been out since 2000.

17 hundreds of times. And then the first time I got a bad experience was just recently. and the person was just more rude rather than I didn't feel threatened. His wife was mortified. She was, she was wonderful. And he just asked inappropriate questions and I got caught off guard cause I'd never been asked those questions and I didn't really have a good answer. I, I just answered truthfully about being a guy, but I said, not tonight. And it was fine. But,

Hp (40:43.715)
Yeah. no.

Maddie Taylor (41:03.7)
Have you had any bad experiences that you felt?

Hp (41:07.277)
Well, my first time going to Vegas, I went to the Divas Las Vegas thing and it was my first time really doing anything in public other than like you.

Maddie Taylor (41:08.766)
threatened or anything.

Maddie Taylor (41:18.196)
Was that in 2011 that you mentioned on your?

Hp (41:21.409)
Boy, that probably, probably, it seems about right.

Maddie Taylor (41:27.412)
And then you said 2013 was so different than your 2011 experience.

Hp (41:30.197)
Right, exactly. Yeah, so I went the first time and I was like so nervous and I was like determined I was gonna do it. I was like, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna be in public. I'm gonna walk down the strip. I'm gonna go to these casinos and stuff. But I was like really, really nervous the whole time and like trying to not walk like a guy. Like I wasn't doing the over exaggerated hip thing or whatever like that, but I was just trying to not, you know, look like a guy.

Maddie Taylor (41:39.422)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (41:54.823)
Right.

Hp (41:59.501)
but, I was so nervous and I heard several comments like, you know, just snide comments from people behind me. And I had one guy like stand in salute. I guess I was being like really stiff as I was walking. And so there was a lot of that kind of mocking like stuff, but so that was kind of like a bad experience for me. But then like,

Maddie Taylor (42:19.718)
Okay.

Maddie Taylor (42:24.852)
Do you think in any way it was, of course it was not your fault in any way, but do you think the lack of confidence, this is a horrible analogy, but I do think it fits. You know, when a dog senses you're afraid of them versus your confidence, yeah. Okay.

Hp (42:39.449)
100%. That's definitely what it was. And then the next, and then like you said, two years later I went back and I was like, you know, what, fricking, I'm not gonna try and be nervous. I'm not gonna care what people think. It was like, the torpedoes, full speed ahead. I'm not gonna look timid. I'm just gonna have fun. And it was a completely different experience. Anyone that I met was just like, you know, happy to see me and...

just rolled with it. I'm 100 % sure it was just my, yeah.

Maddie Taylor (43:11.592)
I think that's really important point you just made. The thing is though, people can't just snap their fingers and get confidence. Do you have any idea what happened between the first one and the second one you went to? you had this? Was it because you had dressed more and maybe gone out a little bit more or something just clicked?

Hp (43:34.853)
I really hadn't gone out more. I was determined somewhere along the line. just determined that I wasn't going to let other people decide whether I was having fun or not. And I wasn't going to care whether other people approved or didn't approve. And I was just going to enjoy it. And if that was a problem, then that was their problem. And I'm sure that I had... Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (44:01.202)
And I think people sense that and that's why you get a different reaction.

Hp (44:06.273)
Yeah, I believe so. And I'm sure that I had gotten advice from other people I had talked to that said exactly what I told you, that if there's a problem, then it's their problem, not my problem.

Maddie Taylor (44:20.164)
That was the difference. then I think they they sensed it. Like, that's an important point for people to hear. So, Heidi, you had a quote on your website and I'm going to read it to you. I think there might be a few extra words that I think I made some notes. I might have added to it or it might be your actual quote, but I want to I want to run it by you and then and then have you talk about it. You said Heidi, Heidi lives in the moment, not in the past, not in the future.

and how it can be a way to suspend reality. Did you say the suspend reality part? Or was that my notes?

Hp (45:00.403)
that sounds right. Yeah. I mean, that's, I definitely said the part about, Heidi lives in the moment. at one point, Nikki, my wife, asked me like, what's the backstory? Does Heidi have a backstory? And I'm like, and I thought about that. I'm like, well, maybe she should. And then I'm like, no, she doesn't have a backstory because she's just all about the moment. And like you said, part of any hobby really.

is forgetting about your regular life and just concentrating on whatever hobby you're engaged in. And that's the fun of it is that you don't have to think about those things.

Maddie Taylor (45:40.13)
And I think the suspending reality, can be Heidi, suspend reality, because Heidi's not really who you are in a lot of ways. It is partly who you are. But I want to challenge you a little bit on this because I can really relate to that. And I love that quote. But what's happened to me and you tell me if it's happened to you is that after a while, you start to make friends.

You start to have obligations. You have obligations to friends that you've, you've made contact with. you have places to be places to go. And that is reality. And that's, that's not just in the past or in the future or whatever. It, it's something that Heidi has created. And even though you don't wake up and wonder who you are every morning, you've created a person in relationships that.

that are part of the future because you're going to communicate with them. You're doing these interviews, you're going to the event and people are gonna say, I haven't seen you in a long time and you're gonna catch up. So how does that square with no future, no past, future?

Hp (46:54.425)
Well, I think what I was more trying to get at was I don't think about the stresses of work or family life or those things. But you're right. mean, it's definitely become something that's a part of me that where you do have these relationships and you do have events and friendships and things.

Maddie Taylor (47:05.576)
Mm-hmm

Hp (47:24.099)
that in a way become responsibilities because you want to nurture those friendships and so you've got to perpetuate that.

Maddie Taylor (47:36.212)
But you still, but to your point, you're still, because it's not your total reality and you're gonna go back and I would imagine the percentage of time you live in boy mode versus Heidi is far more boy mode. But so it's your suspense reality, but it has its own reality within that suspended reality. Does that make sense?

Hp (47:56.425)
Yeah, that's true. And I don't want to go off on a tangent too far, but in some ways, it's more truthful, more authentic being Heidi than my guy self because I'm not hiding a part of me. Well, I guess, I mean, maybe I am because I'm hiding my guy side. Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (48:14.558)
my, I can relate. can. my God. I can relate to that statement. There's the, think, I think that's the things that you were feeling when you were young that you found out weren't appropriate because you were a boy. Those things never went away and your desire to have those conversations with women, preference over maybe men. And, and so that you get to do that. You get to live that, that life for a few days or for a few hours.

Hp (48:43.619)
Right. So, well, in my guy self life, I'm very guarded and not like super social. And part of that reason is that is reason for that is that I'm always trying to make sure I don't say the wrong thing or let on that I've got these feminine tendencies. But when I'm hiding, I don't have to worry about.

Maddie Taylor (48:44.148)
It gets very cathartic.

Maddie Taylor (49:09.088)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (49:11.983)
accidentally letting it slip that I bought a new pair of heels last week or I love the color of that nail polish or whatever.

Maddie Taylor (49:19.492)
It is hard when somebody goes, Hey, what's going on in your life? This is, know, in your boy life, what's going on in your life. And some of the most fun and amazing experiences are Heidi or Maddie, but you can't share that with them. And that's a big reason I came out to a lot of people. my mom being one of them, she was in her eighties and, I was kind of her caretaker and I'd go sit on her couch on Saturday mornings and we talked for two hours.

Hp (49:30.564)
Right, right. Exactly.

Maddie Taylor (49:48.556)
And she'd say, how are things going? What's going on in your life? What'd you do this weekend or whatever? And I just, I had to lie to her because the things I was doing was, you know, weekends are for Maddie mostly. And I'm like, I'm not going to sit on this couch and lie to my mom for the next, however many years I have her in my life. And so I told her and the same thing with some friends. We get together, you know, I've known some of these guys for 30 years, 40 years, whatever. And they're like, what's going on? And I'm like,

Hp (49:57.212)
Yeah, yeah.

Hp (50:02.045)
Yeah.

Hp (50:07.078)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (50:17.82)
I don't really want to sit and lie to you either. So I told them and, so I identify with that. You can't really share some of the amazing things that's happening in your life.

Hp (50:29.294)
Right, right. Yeah, because there is an element of lying when you've got that and you can be as vague as possible but there's you still feel kind of guilty for lying to people.

Maddie Taylor (50:36.509)
Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (50:41.16)
Yeah, mean, lying is harsh word, but, know, technically I wasn't telling my mom the truth. You can call it whatever you, whatever you want. I just felt like the, the relationship, when you do that, I felt I was growing apart from my friends or my, I hadn't told. I, and what happened was when I did tell them, guess what? The relationship went to a whole nother level. they started being vulnerable and sharing things with me. And our relationship just went to a much deeper level, which

Hp (50:45.403)
Right.

Hp (50:54.12)
Yeah.

Hp (51:05.734)
Well...

Maddie Taylor (51:10.226)
was a total surprise.

Hp (51:11.78)
Yeah, yeah, that takes a lot of courage because it can go south.

Maddie Taylor (51:17.456)
It can. Let me ask you, you say you're religious but not super religious. So how do you square the dressing with your religious beliefs?

Hp (51:29.294)
Well, let's see. I wouldn't say I'm really religious anymore. We don't really attend church or... Yeah, well, I grew up Catholic. When we moved to Utah, I did join the Mormon church. Everyone around here is Mormon, so the whole neighborhood is, so it seemed kind of natural. And there's a lot of good things about the Mormon church, but...

Maddie Taylor (51:38.024)
Were you Mormon?

Hp (51:59.244)
yeah.

Maddie Taylor (51:59.368)
My dad married, he married a Mormon lady, his second marriage, and he converted. And so I'm very familiar with it.

Hp (52:04.422)
Yeah. Yeah, okay. But eventually we just decided that it just didn't fit and it wasn't really because of the cross dressing. Although if you've seen like their recent statements that they've made, we're kind of glad that we're not involved anymore. So I don't think I'm really religious anymore. I would say more spiritual than religious. And I think

Maddie Taylor (52:25.982)
Right.

Hp (52:35.223)
I think God sees your soul and sees how you treat other people and whether you're a good person or not.

Maddie Taylor (52:42.638)
I agree. I agree. I think it's about love and how you treat people. I think there's good, I'm not religious either, but I think there's some good things in certain religions and you can certainly pick a worst, know, you can pick worst ways to navigate your life. But doing it to the letter of the law with some of these things, I think, puts you a difficult situation and I'm not for that. So.

Hp (53:07.086)
Yeah.

Right.

Maddie Taylor (53:12.884)
Let me ask you, you're a member of the Vanity Club, is that correct? Tell me about the Vanity Club.

Hp (53:17.572)
That's correct, yes.

Well, let's see, a really nice group of ladies for the most part. I any large group is going to have some drama, but yeah, I got invited several years ago and now they try to present a classy image of something that a lot of people have a misunderstanding about. And again, that's as to your question before about going into mainstream or.

Maddie Taylor (53:31.496)
Yeah.

Hp (53:49.92)
or an lgb places i'd that's one of the reasons i like going to mainstream places i to further the conversation that that cross-dressing is not necessarily a just a sexual court that people have a or whatever that it can be done classy and and respectfully

Maddie Taylor (53:58.504)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (54:08.372)
Yeah. It doesn't mean you're gay. Most cross-dressers are straight. but again, like you alluded to in the earlier in the interview, it's, think everything really is a spectrum sexuality and the cross-dressing and the trans from full transition to, know, you put on a, a pair of nylons once in a while. And so, like you said, everybody, everybody's in a little different spot and the human mind and the psyche is so complicated.

Hp (54:11.768)
Yeah.

Hp (54:18.349)
Right.

Hp (54:22.338)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (54:37.324)
I don't think we'll ever, ever be able to truly figure out exactly why we do what we do. Not that we have to.

Hp (54:39.328)
Right.

Hp (54:43.34)
Yeah, and it's so complicated that people try to simplify it and that's where the problem comes in. People just make these assumptions.

Maddie Taylor (54:49.34)
Right.

Maddie Taylor (54:53.348)
I agree. So what does your future look like? Do you have any idea what the future looks like for you and Heidi?

Hp (55:00.842)
Well, I would say maybe. It's our youngest just graduated college and we'll probably be moving out soon. So it'll be interesting to see how the dynamics change there. Will there be more Heidi days? Will there be more dressing and going out?

Maddie Taylor (55:11.038)
Congratulations.

Maddie Taylor (55:25.63)
Do you want there to be more Heidi days?

Hp (55:28.168)
I'm not sure. I would say probably yes. I at least probably want to try it and see how it goes. But that could be interesting. know, one of the things that I try not to make anybody uncomfortable, but especially my kids, I don't want to be prancing around in skirts and heels if it's making them uncomfortable. So I try to do my dressing when they're away.

Maddie Taylor (55:34.878)
Sure.

Hp (55:58.004)
about a fair way all the time. Exactly, pretty soon, yeah.

Maddie Taylor (55:58.494)
But you'll be an empty nester then once the last one leaves here. Yeah. That's going to be an interesting time for you and your wife.

Hp (56:05.861)
Right, right. And you know, I like being her husband and I like doing like the husband wife stuff together. And honestly, being Heidi is a lot of work. So I certainly don't want to do it too much.

Maddie Taylor (56:13.982)
That's great.

Maddie Taylor (56:19.096)
Right? Tell me about it. Tell me about it. takes a lot of, some of my friends get it. Some of them don't quite get it, but it's not just the amount of time it takes to get ready. It's, it's the mindset. It's, it's the rush. And anytime you're doing something like that, it's, it's heavy emotionally, even if it's good.

Hp (56:40.447)
Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (56:41.588)
Does that make sense?

Yeah, it's like heavy on your shoulders. And then once you get to where you're going, I'm always nervous when I walk in. And once you get to where you're going, I'm off to the races. It's great. But yeah, it is a lot. My last question, and then we're going to do the girls want to know some of the girls in the community have some questions for you, and then we'll wrap it up. My last question is, what has been your number one problem issue of being

Hp (57:04.246)
okay.

Maddie Taylor (57:14.493)
across dresser.

Hp (57:17.415)
One problem issue. Well, I suppose.

Hp (57:25.278)
Kind of something I was just kind of alluding to that the cross-dressing sometimes can be isolating because it's usually done in private or done like when I go away. So that by definition takes me away from the family and stuff. sometimes that can kind of seems like it's counterproductive and selfish, I guess. So from like a...

Maddie Taylor (57:45.78)
Mm-hmm.

Hp (57:55.291)
Spiritual point, that's my answer. From like a physical, physiological point, my number one challenge I think is trying to maintain the image because it's a lot of shaving and lot of staying in shape and grooming and it's just a never ending thing.

Maddie Taylor (58:17.746)
Yep. Yep. I can relate 100%. And again, that's part of the work too. it's not just the getting ready. Everybody goes, how long does it take you to get ready? A couple hours, an hour and a half to two hours. Well, that doesn't count the, I, luckily I don't have to, I shave with electric shaver. I had hardly have any hair, but, but I do have to shave and then I always have a spray tan. So I got to do that every week, every week. And if

Hp (58:24.475)
Yeah, exactly.

Hp (58:45.885)
now I know your secret.

Maddie Taylor (58:47.954)
That's right. and, you're right. It's a great way to keep weight off cross-dressing by the way, great weight loss program. all right, let's jump to girls want to know, and then we'll do the two truths and the lie. And then we will wrap up idea. This has been great. Appreciate it. so Sandra Nelson, had a question. Do you plan to add any more content to your website or your YouTube channel?

Hp (58:56.957)
Great incentive, yes.

Hp (59:05.788)
Okay.

Hp (59:16.677)
Well, YouTube channel I post once a week, and I've been able to do that for a few years now. It's kind of a challenge to keep going. So yeah, I do plan to keep doing the YouTube channel. The website is different. It's not as user friendly. So I tend to just take the easy road and post on YouTube. It's also like...

bandwidth and memory requirements or restrictions on the website so it's much harder to to maintain. So I'm not sure if I'm going do much more with that unless there's any kind of like significant updates in my life that I think are valid. I like to keep that website just as like a companion book to my my YouTube channel.

Maddie Taylor (59:46.612)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (01:00:06.292)
Well, it's got some great information on there and it's your part, it's your history, you know? Okay, great. Jennifer Gonzalez wants to know, is that your real hair or do you wear wigs? Either way, you look great.

Hp (01:00:09.858)
Yeah, yeah.

Hp (01:00:18.484)
I definitely wear wigs, yes. I wish I could grow out hair. That's one of my biggest frustrations is that I never really had a good hairline that I could just let it grow out.

Maddie Taylor (01:00:25.797)
Right?

Maddie Taylor (01:00:32.04)
Yeah, me either. How many weights do you have, Heidi?

Hp (01:00:36.41)
I've got probably three or four that I wear regularly and then maybe like another seven or eight that I tried a couple of times and they just weren't me, but I still have them.

Maddie Taylor (01:00:46.228)
Yep. Yep. A lot of similarities. Ginger sometimes, she said, first of all, you were one of her first inspirations, which I think you were for a lot of people. And thank you for that. Her question is, when you're country dancing in female role, how do you turn off the need to lead while dancing?

Hp (01:00:57.966)
Thank you, Ginger.

Hp (01:01:08.216)
Well, I mostly line dance, which is super convenient because the steps are the same for both men and women and you just put different flair into it and

Maddie Taylor (01:01:20.712)
Have you ever danced with a guy who wants to lead?

Hp (01:01:24.26)
yeah, I've done that several times. And it does take some concentration to remember which foot to put where and what hand to put where. But I wouldn't mind doing it again. It's a fun challenge.

Maddie Taylor (01:01:41.884)
Interesting. went to a country dance place once and was not planning on dancing at all. just, it's just a fun place to go and with some girlfriends and I got asked to dance and that I just had a wild hair. said, sure. And I had a hell of a time following. I was a disaster because I had, I hadn't even thought of that. And I'm not a, I'm not a great country swing dancer. know a few moves, but those moves are the lead, not the, not the followers. So that was kind of, I don't know what the guy was thinking.

Hp (01:01:57.25)
Yeah. Yeah, right. You're not prepared.

Hp (01:02:07.969)
Yeah.

Maddie Taylor (01:02:11.22)
Jennifer Hangartner, does your wife ever ask about you being hit on when you go out? I'm assuming you do.

Hp (01:02:20.535)
lots of people, lots of people ask that if I get hit on when I go out. I don't know if my wife has ever asked that. You know, getting hit on is a lot has some to do, something to do with how you look, but it has a lot more to do with, like, do you make eye contact? Do you look like you want to be hit on? Are you positioning yourself somewhere where you look like you want to be approached? So.

Maddie Taylor (01:02:49.093)
Great points.

Hp (01:02:50.048)
So I think most people don't understand that it's a lot less in how you look and more in like your body language and whether you're making eye contact, whether you're smiling at people, whether you're standing on the railing hoping to get asked to dance, that type of thing. So no, I don't get hit on either as Heidi or as my guy self, even though I'm hanging out at a bar a couple times a week.

Maddie Taylor (01:03:07.304)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Taylor (01:03:19.484)
Interesting. I think those are great points. Heather Delish wants to know how do you get those fantastic legs?

Hp (01:03:27.638)
Well, we kind of covered that already. Mostly you are running. I say I'm super active even when I'm not running. I'm doing yard work or walking or hiking.

Maddie Taylor (01:03:31.144)
Yep.

Maddie Taylor (01:03:36.052)
But weren't you born with good legs in the first place?

Hp (01:03:41.002)
Well, yeah, that's probably the better, the truer answer is genetics.

Maddie Taylor (01:03:46.128)
Not to take anything away. And by the way, if you didn't take care your body, they wouldn't end up, but I, I, I'm asked that quite a bit and I'm like, I haven't done anything. I don't run. mean, I've worked out, but, I said, if you saw my siblings, you'd know where the legs came from. And, yeah, it's certainly nothing I'm, I'm doing that's, special. fact, I used to get teased when I was little that I had girl legs and it would make, make me cry and.

Hp (01:03:55.806)
Yeah.

Hp (01:04:02.528)
You've all got it, yeah.

Hp (01:04:12.629)
Hahaha!

Maddie Taylor (01:04:16.048)
I'm like, okay, well, I guess I have the last laugh on that one. Melody Wall wants to know how much Heidi time do you get? Do you get out weekly or monthly?

Hp (01:04:16.243)
Now it makes you smile.

Yes, sir.

Hp (01:04:29.076)
I guess on average it's every two weeks. So maybe two to three times a month.

Maddie Taylor (01:04:37.204)
Okay.

Joanne Rogers wants to know how easy or difficult is it to cross-dress in the state of Utah being that it is so conservative?

Hp (01:04:48.818)
Yeah, I think that's a myth. It's not been a problem for me at all. Especially like downtown, Salt Lake is pretty liberal. But I actually went to, with one of my friends here who's a cross dresser, we went to a Mormon temple opening. And before they dedicated, they allowed the public to go tour it. And I went and did the tour as high E.

through the Mormon temple and we didn't have any issues.

Maddie Taylor (01:05:23.72)
That's good to hear. Yeah, I think I think people I think it just kind of gets blown out of proportion. My dad lived in Utah for years and years and we went there and yeah, it's it's not. It's not quite what people think. And then Joanne also said you have old original Polaroid photos of your beginnings here in North in the Northeast. Sounds like Joanne Rogers.

Hp (01:05:24.808)
Yeah.

Hp (01:05:47.87)
Who said that?

Joanne Rogers, yes, I know. Yeah, she, well, we had, we talked a couple times over email or whatever, way back when I used to live in Maine. And yeah, I still, they weren't Polaroids, but yeah, I still have some of those old 35 millimeter pictures where you would take a picture and you'd take the roll to the.

Maddie Taylor (01:05:52.742)
Sounds like an inside question.

Maddie Taylor (01:06:04.539)
Okay.

Hp (01:06:15.195)
to the drug store and drop them off and nervously go back a week later and pick them up hoping that the person that handed them to you hasn't peeked at them. But yeah, I still have some of those.

Maddie Taylor (01:06:16.605)
Wow.

Maddie Taylor (01:06:20.989)
Wow

Maddie Taylor (01:06:24.5)
I have. I have not experienced that my dressing came much later when we had digital interesting. OK, well, those are the answers or those are the questions from the girls in the community. Our last segment here is going to be two truths and a lie. So, Heidi, you are going to make three statements. Two of them are going to be true and one of them is going to be a lie. And they're not necessarily

Maddie Taylor (01:06:54.428)
in that order and anybody who emails me at maddie sometimes at gmail.com that's maddie sometimes at gmail.com first person that emails me the correct answer which would be which one's the lie will win a prize so with that being said go ahead and give it to us Heidi.

Hp (01:08:01.633)
Okay, so this first one was about 10 years ago. Glamour Boutique offered to fly me out to the East Coast and do a photo shoot. Well, I didn't want to do it, so I agreed, but under these ridiculous diva-like request demands, and so they kind of dropped it.

And I never did it. So number two was just last week. And our wash machine broke down. But I was wanting to try on my outfits that day for Vegas that was coming up. And so I decided, what the hell? I'm just going to do both at the same time. Have my new wash machine delivered.

Maddie Taylor (01:08:32.189)
Okay.

Hp (01:08:57.069)
Go ahead and try on my outfits for Vegas So I I greeted I was trying I was in the middle of trying on my outfits and the wash machine delivery guy came I just greeted him as Heidi and he installed by my washing machine And number three I was out in the desert like 20 miles from the nearest road. It's no cell service

Maddie Taylor (01:09:11.592)
Okay?

Hp (01:09:22.4)
just doing like a guy trip, but as you know, I sometimes bring some girl stuff along to take some fun pictures. And I was in girl mode and finding a nice spot to take some pictures and my truck broke down. So my truck broke down, I'm in girl mode, I'm stranded, no cell service. And a guy on a unicycle came by and rescued me.

So those are my three stories.

Maddie Taylor (01:09:48.004)
Okay. Glamour boutique, washer broke down in the desert stranded. So the first person that emails me, Vili will win a prize. Hey Heidi, this has been an amazing conversation. I really enjoy you being open and honest. And I think a lot of people in our community are going to benefit from hearing your stories and your insights.

Hp (01:10:12.256)
Well, thank you, Maddie. I've enjoyed it. You're a wonderful hostess, and I'm glad that you asked me to do this.

Maddie Taylor (01:10:17.842)
Well, thank you and have a wonderful time in Vegas and I don't want to hear a word about it because I'm going to have FOMO and I've heard that you can indeed die of FOMO. I have a wonderful and safe trip. All right. Take care. Bye.

Hp (01:10:24.854)
Ha ha ha.

Hp (01:10:29.674)
Ha ha!

Thank you, Maddie. I appreciate it. Bye.